I just died a little bit inside.

Haha. In the year 2007, what the hell does this even mean anymore?

Here is just one example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFpQKnnBLnk

(hey, you asked…)

“You can’t prove or disprove a method.”

Exactly…which is why you have operate under the FAITH that it works. You can’t use science to prove/disprove the truth of the scientific method anymore than you can use science to prove/disprove Christianity. We can approach both of them under the catagory of “reasonable faith.”

Thank you for proving my point.

As a Christian, I can explain the existance of things like love, or morality, or reason, or logic, or sin, or the purpose of our lives and the universe. You can tell me how my coffee maker produces coffee. Of course I can do that too, as the Lord doesn’t mind science (or coffee). But as a materialist, you are stuck being a dishonest hypocrite anytime you ever have had a strong opinion about an abstract concept that wasn’t made up of matter (oops, I guess “reason” or “methods” are not made up of matter either, so you are out of luck). And since you can’t measure “honesty” in a test tube or prove it with science, I’m not sure why you care anyway.

I’ll say “Hi” to Brother Jeb when I make my arrival. He might be a tad annoying, but it beats the alternative. Can you say “Hi” to Deb Frisch when you see her for all eternity?

Wow, what a convincing tautology, BBS.

“Science starts with a scientifically unsupportable position. As I already mentioned, you can’t prove the scientific method in a lab.”

No. Good science starts with NO position. The scientific method isn’t a fucking position. It’s a method, as the name happens to imply. You can’t prove or disprove a method. Furthermore, I don’t have faith in the scientific method. Neither do scientists. That’s why they continually try and disprove the results of their experiments. You and your ilk, however, only try to reinforce your beliefs with layer upon layer of dogma and circular logic.

Alright, peace out. Have fun hangin’ with Brother Jed for the rest of eternity.

Another point to consider is that Christians have doubt all the time (at least the honest admit it). I have had my faith in God shaken several times based on sad or tragic events, though I always have come back. And then you wonder if that’s the whole point…(but I digress.)

As far as why you don’t believe in God or Christianity, I’m not sure what I can do for you without knowing more about how you have arrived to where you are today. Do you contemplate if the universal had a beginning and did it have a purpose and creator? Do you think Jesus was a real person? Do you think the Bible is accurate?

For me, I became a theist through philosophical study of ethics and metaphysics. I became a Christian through the study of history (discovring the Bible was accurate — so many of the answers to Big Questions are right there on the pages) and weirdly through the study of politics (trying to figure out why the West was so sucessfull while other cultures were not and why it’s failing now.) Growing my faith was largely the result of things that happend in my life, both good (getting married) and bad (deaths, etc.)

Most of my hold-ups back when I was an “atheist” came from ignorence and bigotry. For example, I couldn’t understand why “good things happen to bad people” (answer: mankind’s sin - which is easily and rationally provable by turning on the news), etc.

Thank you for keeping an open mind.

PS: I hope you understand from my positions that I am not “anti-science” or “anti-reason.” I believe both are valid means to understanding, though they alone can’t answer the Big Questions in life. My pet peve is when when people use bad-science and poor-reasoning to try to “prove” my positions are unscientifc or irrational…

DRINK!

(Is that right? I don’t really know the rules…)

I can admit the possibility that my beliefs about the universe may be wrong, which is why I WANT to know the logic or explanation behind other beliefs. Right now I believe that there isn’t a god, but I could be wrong, and so could you (for example, if a god OTHER than the Judeochristian YHWH/god/allah is the one that actually exists)
P.S. Don’t think I don’t like you guys, I love this! For me discussion is a chance to actually figure out exactly what i believe before I say it, and a chance to see other people’s beliefs and consider taking part of their beliefs to better me. This is exactly what I was trying to do when Jeb was here, to interact at a level other than mob mentality, and equating “the other side” with “incorrect”, “wrong”, or “evil”. Even though i may think that some of your beliefs ARE incorrect, those are just beliefs and holding those beliefs doesnt inherently make you an incorrect, wrong, or evil person; you’re just a guy (or girl possibly) who has different beliefs, seems educated about them, and is willing to explain them. For that, I thank you, Brights-B-Scared.

Actually you have completely contradicted yourself. Science starts with a scientifically unsupportable position. As I already mentioned, you can’t prove the scientific method in a lab.

You clearly have a limited understanding of the words “reason” and “faith.” Faith is about what is believed, rather than about how it is believed. You have faith in the scientific method. Others have faith in the Bible and God. We can talk about which faith is more rational based on the facts. But to use “science to prove science” is just question begging and mental masturbation.

Further, why does a materialist like yourself even care about the truth? Or morality? None of these can be “proved” in the physical universe. Shouldn’t you be out breeding or slaying beasts or whatever your Selfish Gene deity is telling you to do? Debating is no way to get ahead in evolution man!

Lastly, your knowledge of theology and Church history is quite lacking. Chrisitan faith has ALWAYS been based on reason, as God is perfectly rational — “In the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with God…”

Actually you have completely contradicted yourself. Science starts with a scientifically unsupportable position. As I already mentioned, you can’t prove the scientific method in a lab.

You clearly have a limited understanding of the words “reason” and “faith.” Faith is about what is believed, rather than about how it is believed. You have faith in the scientific method. Others have faith in the Bible and God. We can talk about which faith is more rational based on the facts. But to use “science to prove science” is just question begging and mental masturbation.

Further, why does a materialist like yourself even care about the truth? Or morality? None of these can be “proved” in the physical universe. Shouldn’t you be out breeding or slaying beasts or whatever your Selfish Gene deity is telling you to do? Debating is no way to get ahead in evolution man!

Lastly, your knowledge of theology and Church history is quite lacking. Chrisitan faith has ALWAYS been based on reason, as God is pefectily rational

(Sigh)

I never said it was the only way. It’s not. It just happens to be the most reliable way to understand our physical universe.

“This isn’t to say that the scientific method isn’t a valid tool. It works great for good science, not as a faith.”

Okay, now we’re getting somewhere…

“Christians also start with facts backed by logic and reason. And Christian philosophers respect science and reason as other means to help us better understand God, others and the world.”

And then you go and completely contradict yourself. Christians don’t start with facts; they start with an scientifically unsupportable position. That’s why it’s called faith. You know what your problem is? Ever since Thomas Aquinas, y’all Christian apologists have been trying to mix reason and faith, and frankly it’s bullshit. Faith by definition precludes the use of reason or observable phenomenon.

“You could simply believe the Bible, or you could use your brain to really believe it.”

This statement makes my head asplode.