But you are coercing other people when you vote. Why be a part of that? When I was in the CR’s I never held a sign or promoted a candidate nor encouraged anyone to vote. I joined because I wanted to talk with people who agreed that the 2nd Amendment is the most important one in preventing genocide and enslavement. No where else, besides a few from the Commentator, could I find that - and that is why I’m here.

“This makes even less sense. … Were there great slaughters in the last century? Of course. What’s your point? That governments are evil? What a stupendously ignorant thing to say. It doesn’t take into consideration cultural and historical factors, and it assumes that we must judge all governments equally. And let’s not forget that you belong to the fucking Marines, dude. I’m not sure how that jibes with your overall “philosophy”.”

So cultural and historial “factors” justify genocide and mass murder? There was no historical precident for the mass murder of the 20th century. That magnitude of slaughter had never happened on earth. The point is that absolute power of the government is evil. You tell me the reason why Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. did what they did and also how they could do it. Was there just a statistically anomoly which caused 262 million people to slaughtered by dictators? I tell you they did it for power and they did it through the people’s blind acceptance of the state.
How else should we judge governments? Based on their subject’s race, religion, or GDP? That all seems a bit racist and xenophobic - do not the Chinese deserve freedom as much an Americans?

Who the fuck is the state? You’re not part of it. I’m not part of it. Most of us here aren’t. The police are part, as are the politicians, and the bureaucrats who support them. The means of the government to establish the state are evil, but not all in government are at fault. It is legal to murder others in war, but those who direct where to shoot are at fault.

The socialists and state apologists tell us that the more power we give to the government, the better off we’ll be, and they in turn also say if we do not give this power, or if power is taken from the government, horrible consequences will befall the populace. It seems clear to me that’s their message.

I used to believe that by joining the Marines I would be defending freedom for my fellow Americans. That was on my 17th birthday and a month after 9/11. Now I realize there are better ways to do that, although the Corps is certainly in a capacity to do so and it does right now (except Iraq and Afganistan although I think they are moral - I’m just more concerned with Americans). We have an incredible amount of freedom in this country, in large part due to the soldiers who believe the doing the right thing. This is the oath I swore:
“I, Andy, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”

Now what is the most important part of the Constitution? Obviously the Bill of Rights. I’m positive I haven’t violated anyone’s right and I done a great deal of training to enable me to hold true to that oath. I’ve talked with Ted about this for some length, and I assure you and my fellow Americans I will never fight against Americans. I will gladly be imprisoned, tourtured, or executed than betray my countrymen - as most Marines I have ever met concur. We joined to defend the American people, our families, and freedom for them. Money was a (small) factor - and you can go look up my salary as a Sergeant with 5 years in. Many Marines I know at my rank and higher take substantial pay cuts when they come on duty. I assure everyone that Marines do it to defend freedom.

But we can surely talk about other subjects at Rennie’s.

“There is no voting for anarcho-capitalists. I take it to be the equivalent of burning a draft card. But - I believe a moral an-cap will always continue to fight tyranny in one way or another.”

This is funny coming from someone who belonged to the CRs. I don’t believe that voting is necessary, but you certainly aren’t being coerced into doing it. Apathy is a human right. Right?

“The thugs cannot move in and grab people to quickly as it will scare the herd - and it’s much easier when people run full speed into the jaws of death.”

Frankly, I’m not sure what that means, Andy.

“When the world moved close to the grinder it was shocked, and many understandably do not wish to talk about the experience, let alone remember the greatest human slaughters during the 20th century.”

This makes even less sense. … Were there great slaughters in the last century? Of course. What’s your point? That governments are evil? What a stupendously ignorant thing to say. It doesn’t take into consideration cultural and historical factors, and it assumes that we must judge all governments equally. And let’s not forget that you belong to the fucking Marines, dude. I’m not sure how that jibes with your overall “philosophy”.

“The state and it’s cronies incessantly push and prod and preach to not worry about where we are headed - that’s what they are paid to do.”

You mean, instead of shrilly screaming about the encroaching darkness? I don’t get it? Who the fuck is “The State”?

“They tell us the nightmares we will see if we open our eyes - and we stay in a perpetual state of fear and mistrust for that which isn’t under complete dominance of government.”

Which is it: Does The State tell us that everything is rosy, or do they tell us that we should fear everything?

You’re my friend, Andy, so I truly hope that you refine your philosophical wanking. Please. And the next time we have a beer, let’s talk about something else.

Bring it, Andy!

I see the socialists grabbing everyone’s hands with stories of grandeur and gumdrop meadows - they are so sure of it and just want the best for everyone. But all that is in the direction they are going is a meat grinder administered by the thugs of the state. Their intellectuals and propagandists are the siren’s call. The thugs cannot move in and grab people to quickly as it will scare the herd - and it’s much easier when people run full speed into the jaws of death. When the world moved close to the grinder it was shocked, and many understandably do not wish to talk about the experience, let alone remember the greatest human slaughters during the 20th century. I can still see the grinder though, looming in the distance, and I try to tell everyone to pick up their heads, open their eyes and ears and look at it in the distance. But everyday we keep our heads down and slowly shuffle towards it. Not because people really want to, but we are consumed with what is most important in the short run - our families, friends, jobs, hobbies, etc. The state and it’s cronies incessantly push and prod and preach to not worry about where we are headed - that’s what they are paid to do. They tell us the nightmares we will see if we open our eyes - and we stay in a perpetual state of fear and mistrust for that which isn’t under complete dominance of government. So we obey and get back to living the best we can under the byzantine bureaucracy and perpetual violence the state’s gang inflicts on us - for our own good.

I guess the point I was making was that the only possible “libertarian-anarcho-capitalist” reason for voting Republican rather than Democrat is that the Republican fiscal policies seem to approach the anti-statist at times. Not that I think the government is on the verge of “bankruptcy,” or that it “peddles counterfeit currency.”

Also, anything that doesn’t come in a can labled “Pabst Blue Ribbon” is not beer, but an imposter. “People mumble, Pabst speaks.”

1) Andy is an anarcho-capitalist, they’re pretty big on the gold standard. He’s also a little excitable, but a smart guy with interesting things to say. The start is always rough, but I’d encourage you to engage him at least on some topics of interest. He and I have been ’round and ’round about the gold standard, I don’t think either of us is going to convice the other of anything regarding it any time soon (I am rather not an anarcho-capitalist).

2) I was so fucking high when I wrote that, but I definitely lean more toward lighter and wheat-based ales during the summer time. I tend to reserve the darker stuff for the dark pit of winter. Not that winter exists in South Texas, mind you.

More asinine than proclaiming the federal debt will lead to the collapse of the state? I my point was proper because inflation and deficits were brought up.

It seems the majority of your critcism of my points question their strength, but not their validity.

What DO you have to say? Do you have a good justification for the Democrats actions? Are you just agreeing with me? Should I post about beer? I just made a Fat Tire clone…it’s on tap out of my fridge!

Best beer of the moment: Bridgeport IPA

It all depends on one’s taste, I suppose. I’m a sucker for the darker ales, and, as such, prefer to flirt with the smoother porters if and when the heat begins to cut into my drinking…

If this is where the conversation is going to begin, I, for one, do not want to stick around for the conclusion.

Yea, I don’t know how many people hold gov’t securities and if they could see default comming - I know I’ll never buy notes. I wish I didn’t have to use dollars, and I frequently buy intrest bearing assets with them to counteract the incessant inflation.

The gov’t existed on the gold standard for centuries - so I’m pretty sure the collapse of the dollar, by itself, will have little effect on the the oppression of our government from means other than fiat.

Of course, neither beer is affordable with today’s minimum wage. But I’ll bet the multi-millionaire “estate babies” the Rs have been trying to help aren’t exactly crying in their beer…

Did you know the soviets had more efficient health-care than us? They just shot people! Much more efficient. No min-wage or expensive socialized medicine. But why do you think free-market health-care is better? I’m glad to hear you think so - but why not also in labor markets?

Isn’t a tax break anti-pork? Wasn’t the issue to raise the minimum wage? Is egrigous taxation not tyrannical?

I do realize their agenda could be interpreted in a different way - but that’s the conclusion I’ve come to.

The beer, is it perhaps a Russian Imperial Stout this evening?

Yes, well, “poverty” is not the only issue at stake here. Your beloved neoliberalism certainly has its benefits, but only a fool would argue that certain personal costs have not increased (dramatically) since the minimum wage was last raised. If you’re going to consider the lesser of two evils, well, I would argue that raising the minimum wage is a better solution to rising health care costs for the poor then, say, socialized medicine. Then again, we could all just continue to let John Q. Public pick up the tab for all of those unpaid emergency room bills. That would be practical.

“It’s clear that the Democrats agenda is to advance the tyrannical reaches of the state at the expense of their main supporters: college students and poorer citizens.”

Yes, that is clearly the only logical way to interpret this development. I mean, how could a person consider thissituation and think, “Wow. The Democrats want to vote on a bill to raise the minimum wage without tacking on any pork (be it in favor of college students or the landed and diversified aristocracy).” How dare they raise an issue and actually stick to the issue! That’s decidedly un-American.

“This is not unlike the Republican Party too - but at least the “Bushies” have gotten some bills passed.”

And, let me say… That was a real challenge. A real fucking challenge. I don’t know how they pulled it off… They only control the House, the Senate and the Presidency, and, yet, they can still somehow manage to pass a bill… Unbe-fucking-lievable.

“I’m not positive how one goes about voting Democratic these days when they have been so spineless about their own agenda - would anyone notice if they stopped showing up?”

Well, the Republicans have managed to set up one of the briefest schedules the House has seen in decades, so, no, no one would probably miss a thing.

Anyway… I have a beer to finish…

Just remember, in times like these, we need to keep on fighting the good fight against the minority. If they ever come to power, we may actually return to an age of diplomacy and fiscal responsibility.