First American Apparel, Now GAP
Planning on walking near the Heart of CampusTM tomorrow? Curious as to what aborted fetuses look like? You’re in luck!
(Fair warning: pretty much every link in this post points to images which many may find highly disturbing)
On Wednesday and Thursday between 7:30 and 4:00 the Genocide Awareness Project (GAP) will be displaying images of aborted fetuses, lynchings, and holocaust victims, amongst other things. Their purpose is to equate the images and consequently point out the genocidal nature of legalized abortion. This assuredly will lead to much hand-wringing, yelling, and other unpleasantries. As one would expect, the Women’s Center will be protesting the event. (Which is unfortunate, since the Women’s Center is implicitly excluding pro-life women from its organization by taking an officially pro-choice stance.) It also means I’ll have to look at pictures of aborted fetuses, people hanging from trees, and holocaust victims every time I go to the EMU the next couple of days. Sigh.
I must say that I do have rather mixed views of GAP’s tactics:
On one hand, even if abortion is genocide, then there’s still no particular reason to directly equate it to the holocaust, lynchings of African-Americans, or other evils. Not to sound like a nitpicking relativist, but something can be unequivically bad without being the same as something else unequivocally bad. If abortion is evil, then can’t it be its own evil? Don’t images of aborted fetuses speak volumes on their own?
And even if an image speaks volumes one way or another, it’s oftentimes inappropriate to push it in unsuspecting people’s faces. There are numerous students who know what an aborted fetus looks like, have an ironclad point of view one way or the other on the issue, and just want to go to their classes without having to see such images again. A very good friend of mine had relatives murdered in the holocaust and purposely avoids viewing images of the atrocities. He isn’t ignorant and he isn’t avoiding reality– he’s seen plenty of images and depictions of that particular genocide. But he does want to go about his day without an emotional load to bear. In a similar vein, a fellow Commentator staffer was bothered by the full image of the last Insurgent issue’s cover that I put up on the blog– for day or two when he visited the blog he pretty much had to view an image that offended him.
On the other hand, the images are undoubtedly powerful. People oftentimes benefit from being confronted by images they find offensive or disturbing– it either strengthens or challenges their existing worldview. I can’t imagine a picture of a late-term abortion could possibly strengthen a pro-choicer’s or weaken a pro-lifer’s respective belief in the righteousness of legalized abortion. Similarly, I can’t imagine a picture of an airstrike victim could possibly strengthen a hawk’s or weaken a pacifist’s view of military intervention. (Of course, in both cases opposing images can be found to invert argument strengths, which is why sensible people generally argue with reason rather than emotion.)
Additionally, images of lynchings in the deep south and of the holocaust were extemely important in convincing people of the respective times that there were unbelievable evils being committed. If a person believes that abortion is an extreme evil, wouldn’t they be negligent to not attempt to confront people with images such as these?
Anyways, enough of me saying what everyone already knows. Tomorrow and Thursday could be interesting, to say the least. If you don’t want to see the images, walk another route or avert your eyes.
Oh, and there was a bit of controversy over whether or not the UO College Republicans were hosting the GAP. I talked with Chair Anthony Warren earlier tonight and he told me that someone from the CRs had indeed reserved the amphitheatre on behalf of the group but that otherwise there was no official connection or involvement on the part of the College Republicans.
May 10th, 2006 at 6:45 am
The slimy little shit anthony warren reserved it. What a pussy he wouldn’t tell you it was him. He didn’t tell any of the other CRs either, which undoubtedly will be connected to the event as it is “hosted by the CRs.” This even was held at Oregon State last week and the OSUCRs and they would have NOTHING to do with this event. warren went out of his way for weeks to deceive the UO College Republicans, whom most of us found out this event was happening in the past 48 hours. Unfortunately, anthony is too much of a pussy to say that it was his doing behind the backs of our general meetings. This issue was never even brought up, nor discussed with UOCRs, and the vast majority of the members disagree with the GAP, because they are fucking insane!
Whomever reads this, please understand that most College Republicans DO NOT support this event and we are sickened that our chair lied to us so this could be held in our name.
Now all this is on top of the fact that GAP is nuts. Is there any difference between this and the tactics of the insurgent? Both are using graphic pictures to illustrate their opinions, but at least the insurgent doesn’t put it up in the middle of campus. I think they are extremely juvenile and Oregon Right to Life and EVERY OTHER Republican group in the state will have NOTHING to do with these wackos. Only anthony “you’re oppressing me” warren is the only one with open arms to these people in the entire state of Oregon.
May 10th, 2006 at 7:17 am
You need to reserve the amphitheatre? It’s a public space, you can just hang out there all day if you want.
The hell?
May 10th, 2006 at 8:24 am
Actually after having discussion with most of the club, UOCR’s do support the event Andy you are just too overly emotional and heated to see that since you spend too much time yelling at everyone else. Also I told Ian that I reserved last night when he called me, but I must say the slimy added to my name is a new one, never been called slimy before. Also thanks for the new nickname referring to the oppressing me one.
Also obviously you are going to continue to call me names and what not, but that is fine, just be a real man about it and dont do it on a bog site Andy. Your allegations are false and out of line I thought you would be a bigger man than that to start slinging mud and accusations like that esp. when you dont have the whole story cause you wont ever listen to anyone else talk.
May 10th, 2006 at 8:25 am
Oh and yesh Tim it seems weird you would have to reserve a public space but the scheduling office requires it if it is an off campus group that has things set-up on the ground. Weird but sadly the rules I guess.
May 10th, 2006 at 8:47 am
Well I called you plenty of names last night such as liar, cheat, backstabber, bitch and whatever else that describes your behavior, in front of the entire club. I’ll call you out for who you really are whenever it comes up anthony, not just on the blog.
The biggest lie you’ve told, even worse than, “ohh I forgot to tell the club that the GAP was coming in our name,” is that most of the club supports it. You’re nuts! Anyone who supports the GAP is nuts also, no matter if they call themselves CRs or not.
It’s a fact that no one from the general club knew that this was coming in our name. It’s another fact that you tried to cover up GAP was coming also. Those are not in dispute.
Just look at your post - you say two assertions and then the rest is just defending yourself from being oppressed by me. You really want to question my manhood anthony? Ha! You’re pathetic, and everyone who knows you knows it.
May 10th, 2006 at 8:56 am
Dolberg I understand why you are mad, I tried talking to you about it last night, but I did nothing wrong other than what I already admitted to at the meeting. I dont understand your apparent hate and disgust for me just because of this one event. Dude you are making attacks that are way way out of line and not fair to me at all.
Dude be the bigger man and stop with the unfounded assualts on my name.
May 10th, 2006 at 11:06 am
“Who did this to you?”
“The Chief of Police of Malibu. He’s a real reactionary”
May 10th, 2006 at 11:18 am
Anthony is correct, he did indeed tell me that he had reserved the space for GAP. I used the word “someone” because when I talked to him I wasn’t taking notes or recording. When I wrote the post an hour or so later I used vague language because I was only 90% sure he had said it was him, not 100%. My apologies for the confusion.
Anthony also categorically stated that the CRs have absolutely no involvement in the GAP’s activities other than that he reserved the space and time. So I don’t think he’s trying to misrepresent that at all.
Also, I admittedly don’t know Anthony very well, but I wouldn’t say that “pussy” describes his character. And it’d probably be far more productive for the two of you to talk in person then argue over the Internet.
May 10th, 2006 at 11:36 am
I don’t know Ian…
Im kinda enjoying the comment war.
The GAP thing is a joke and should be regarded as such. It is on the other hand a really effective way to get the sleepy apathetic liberals on campus to wake up and get more involved with PP and Students for Choice. I don’t really see how The G.A.P. project would change minds. It just falls into stereotypes people have about radical pro-lifers and hurts legitimate concerns surrounding the issue of abortion. I’m not trying to be confrontational either, if someone thinks that the G.A.P. project is an effective way to get people to change their minds I’d like to know why. So far its boosted Students for Choice and disrupted CRs.
May 10th, 2006 at 12:29 pm
Frankly, if a reservation is required for the amphitheatre, and the CRs (or their Dear Leader) made the reservation for GAP, I don’t think they’ve much to hide behind with “Well, we don’t really agree we just helped them put together their rally.” It smacks of the double-talk ANSWER used when folks pointed out they were backed/run by members of the Worker’s World Party.
I think by agreeing to get the reservation for them, you agreed to put your neck out there for the inevitable response. Yeah, it’s only the appearance of impropriety, as such, but if you don’t endorse what they say it doesn’t seem that hard not to do them any favors. They could still stand on the sidewalks with their signs, as they’ve a right to peaceful assembly on public spaces.
But, given this:
I’m going to have a very difficult time taking anything Anthony says very seriously. Much like Bible Jim is crazy not because he believs in God, but because he’ll spend his free afternoons shouting at people on the corner; GAP aren’t crazy because they don’t think abortion is illegal, they’re crazy because they think it’s morally equivalent to genocide and will shout at people about that on the street corner. As the man says, if you’re talking to God that’s prayer, but if God’s talking to you, you’re schizophrenic.
The best response to GAP is an eye roll and ignoring them, but the campus left is too stupid to realize this, of course. I’m sure there will be some sort of counter-protest…which only brings more attention to the wingnuts, and that’s all they need. They’re the Fred Phelps of the anti-abortion movement, the best thing is to just not pay them any mind.
May 10th, 2006 at 1:15 pm
Ian I appreciate your vote of confidence in my character. Thanks man.
May 10th, 2006 at 2:06 pm
Tim-
You’re correct in your assertions. I stood out there with a sign, which read that I was a college republican and I don’t support the display with 6 other CR’s. Of course anthony wasn’t showing his support for this, and none of the other college republicans who “supported” this event were there! The only college republicans out there today were the ones who OPPOSED this event!
Even the CR’s who think I shouldn’t be out there said that they agree that they anthony was wrong. I think you have pissed on everyone in the entire state of oregon anthony. Good work.
May 10th, 2006 at 2:36 pm
The reason why the majority of CR’s weren’t there Andy is because we knew that the more CR’s that were there the more it would potentially be bad press for us. You being there only further added to potential bad press of the club and further put the CR’s right in the middle of this event, more so than if none of us had been there and it would have just slipped away into the back pages of the paper.
May 10th, 2006 at 2:38 pm
Wow the ENITRE state? I didnt know I had that kind of range, I knew my 3 pointer had some deep range but not my ability to expell liquid waste. That has got to be some kind of Guiness record or something.
May 10th, 2006 at 2:51 pm
Well now this is an interesting debate now isn’t it.
Excuse me while I grab some popcorn.
May 10th, 2006 at 3:02 pm
Would you like butter on that?
May 10th, 2006 at 3:36 pm
Please!
May 10th, 2006 at 3:43 pm
I was at the CR meeting and to say “after having discussion with most of the club, UO CRs do support the event” is pure distortion.
The president-elect resigned because of this and the vice-president Shadow, only supported it because he didn’t want to help create a media frenzy or make the CRs look foolish and divided.
It was definitely clear that all present CRs were pissed that they were the last student group on campus to find out that ‘they’ reserved the amphitheater for GAP.
May 10th, 2006 at 4:02 pm
Just as an aside:
1) Those pictures? They aren’t abortions. They’re stillbirths and miscarriages.
2) Regardless of what they are pictures of, they are being used without the patient’s consent.
I’m not taking sides on the argument, but I am going to have to stand up to false pictorial displays and a blatant disrespect for medical privacy rights. Honestly, what mother would want the horror of having her stillbirth/miscarriage blown up and touted as an abomination? It just adds to the pain.
May 10th, 2006 at 4:21 pm
Gee anthony, if everyone in the CRs supported it, then why wouldn’t they be there showing their support? Ohh, but they didn’t want to have the CR’s name associated with the display right?
Our group and our interviews are doing the most to save the image of the college republicans. Maybe you didn’t get the e-mail from the womans center like I did saying that the college republicans were sponsoring it, but I sure do know that DPS was telling students it was sponsored by the CRs.
You have no argument. You go from “it was supported” to well we want to keep our name away from it, to saying it’s wrong that I tell people that the CRs don’t support that display.
Everyone on campus will sure as hell know now anthony, when all this could have could have been prevented by YOU! You are the responsible party for this disaster because you blatently hid it from the club. Four members have left in disgust, how many more will leave? And what will you say, screw them? That sounds just like you - burning every bridge you cross.
What I meant to say is that you have pissed off everyone you have ever met in the state of Oregon. You’re a disgrace.
May 10th, 2006 at 5:32 pm
I love this campus…
a friend was counter-demonstrating against G.A.P. and as I stopped to say a sunny hello, she accuses “my friends” in the CRs of “bringing this travesty to our campus.” Apparently OC staff membership implies CR membership. Not a fun assumption to run up against.
May 10th, 2006 at 5:35 pm
Hah, now I remember why I stopped attending CR meetings…
May 10th, 2006 at 5:49 pm
Gabrielle: Well, back when Jarrett was around…well, Jarrett was cool enough, it was McNeil who was a superdouche. That said there were reasons I never saw the CRs as the place to be. *cough*Austin*cough*
Melissa: I’ve seen that noted before, pretty awful.
niedermeyer: That’s long been a problem, not much to be done about it.
Meghann: Hooray for butter.
May 10th, 2006 at 6:05 pm
Ah, Jarrett. That reminds me: did the South ever get around to rising again? I kind of stopped paying attention.
May 10th, 2006 at 6:47 pm
I’m not sure, maybe they needed a giant black pot.
May 10th, 2006 at 9:29 pm
Anthony: “The reason why the majority of CR’s weren’t there Andy is because we knew that the more CR’s that were there the more it would potentially be bad press for us.”
While I can certainly appreciate the pragmatism of the above statement, I don’t think you’re supposed to come right out and admit this.
May 11th, 2006 at 4:22 pm
right, because its not like the OC is “the press” in any way… nor would it ever consider reporting on anything that might be bad for the CRs. Its ok Tony, no one is paying attention to the fiasco behind the curtain
May 11th, 2006 at 5:58 pm
Its so bad now even Anthony’s own republican cronies hate him. Who doesn’t hate him? Despite coming accross as arrogant, I must say that is a good question.
May 11th, 2006 at 7:58 pm
I have/had cronies? Wow Im impressed with myself, I always wanted those.
May 11th, 2006 at 10:20 pm
In response to the comment that was never actually posted
anthony is better looking than ben (dem co-chair), but not kristina (other dem co-chair, who’s equally important)
May 12th, 2006 at 7:39 am
I remember a couple of years ago the CRs had this quite fetching blonde, Shoseph and I had a class with her. Can’t remember her name now, started with an M…
May 12th, 2006 at 11:47 am
This message is to Andy, and to anyone else who opposes G.A.P.’s display. ANYONE who is pro-life, Christian, or who claims to upholds morals in any way should be in absolute and total support of G.A.P.. The biggest argument about abortion is that the “fetus” is not a baby, and this project’s goal is to show to the world that they truly are living people. This is an EDUCATIONAL group, and if you are opposed to educating this campus than don’t you dare call yourself pro-life. If no one had come out and shown pictures of the holocaust than no one would have known the truth! Martin Luther King Jr. used pictures of beaten blacks to show the tuth or racism, so I honestly don’t understand why you oppose showing the naked TRUTH about abortion. I also have to say that your behavior towards Anthony has been disgusting, and it goes against everything you claim to believe and uphold. Anthony has put himself on the line in order to do the RIGHT THING. G.A.P. has had amazing effects. I spoke to protesters for 3 hours yesterday, and I want you to know that this display has caused people to really evaluate what they believe, and to openly discuss it. G.A.P has done wonders ont his campus int he last 2 days, and I’m extremely proud that Anthony Warren worked on their belalf, and I want you to know that I’m ashamed of your behavior.
May 12th, 2006 at 12:20 pm
To anyone calling themselves Pro-Life who oppossed the Demostrations put on by GAP in the past two days, I recommend you seriously re-evaluate your conscience. How can you dare be in opposition to pictures and people and call yourself an advocate for life and spreading of truth if you’re angry and against what caused so many people to think. Both days GAP was here I stood out there, a College Republican, for 2 hours Wed. and 3 hours on Thursday. I debated against whole groups and individuals. They were NOT the types of debates that start and end in yelling and misuderstanding, both women, men, and professors that I talked to were in general impressed that I, a minority on campus was actively out there willing to talk to people. I can say full heartedly as well, that some of the people I talked to walked away with a different, enlightened view. There was one man in particular who was so affected that I could tell that he was in the process of changing his opinion on abortion. I’m am very angry at all the College Republicans making generalizations towards people like me who suffer from the negative sterotypes that i’ve been giving be liberals all my life! YOU are just as cowardly as them to walk away and say that all those in support of GAP or who are affiliated with the group are fanatics. I was proud to see such a constroversial issue brought to life, because it has allready affected to many people for the better.
To Anthony Warren, I am proud to know you, even though we have never met; to his so-called friends, I am sorrowfully disappointed in you and ashamed that you call yourself pro-life. What happened in the past two days was amazing, and I hope every year it can be reproduced. If anyone has any questions about the validity of what I personally experienced and what liberals said to me contact me, if you’re brave enough: pivezic@uoregon.edu
May 12th, 2006 at 12:50 pm
Longer, more belabored sigh.
May 12th, 2006 at 2:29 pm
How dare good Republicans not let their party be hijacked by religous extremists? Oh, the irony of the “wedge isssue” backfire.
May 13th, 2006 at 5:28 pm
Where was I when this was going on?
May 14th, 2006 at 6:25 am
I’m not religious at all but I think that abortion is awful. I don’t wish to make it illegal but I’m not sure I’m right about that either. This is a very complicated issue.
Everyone should witness a woman’s first ultraosund when pregnant. Believe me …we are talking about real life here !
May 14th, 2006 at 9:38 am
That’s an overly emotive way to look at the issue. The earliest a fetus has human brainwaves is in the neighborhood of four months, so if you’re legally dead when brain activity starts it makes at least some intuitive sense to draw the line for life at when brain activity starts. There are practical issues with this, obviously. Therefore, as a bit of a swag, you can probably call it the end of the first trimester.
Now, being that a fetus can’t really survive on its own until about the end of the second trimester, I think that’s another reasonable place to say that it’s probably alive. As medical technology improves, that line will probably get closer and closer to the start of pregnancy. That presents other difficult ethical questions, I suppose, but that bridge can get crossed when we’re closer to it. At the moment, the end of the second trimerster seems like a good practical line for the moment.
May 14th, 2006 at 11:34 am
I must first state that I am absolutely pro-life and while I find the pictures of abortions distastful, I also see the necessity of being “in-your-face” at times. The part that I object to is the hijacking of the english language for any cause.
gen·o·cide n. The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group. (From the dictionary.com definition).
It does not mean a person here and a person there, crossing all social, political, cultural and socio-economic lines. It simply is not a genocide. It is an atrocity, but not genocide.
May 14th, 2006 at 11:50 am
Philomena wrote “To anyone calling themselves Pro-Life who oppossed the Demostrations put on by GAP in the past two days, I recommend you seriously re-evaluate your conscience. How can you dare be in opposition to pictures and people and call yourself an advocate for life and spreading of truth if you’re angry and against what caused so many people to think.”
The basic problem is that the GAP equates abortion to genocide. It’s not the same, not even close, and is complete fabrication.
If you have to lie to spread your message, maybe you should re-evaluate your conscience.
Sara wrote: “This message is to Andy, and to anyone else who opposes G.A.P.’s display. ANYONE who is pro-life, Christian, or who claims to upholds morals in any way should be in absolute and total support of G.A.P.”
Again, if you have to resort to lies and fabrication (e.g. saying abortion and genocide are the same thing) to spread your message, it is you who are failing to uphold certain morals. It is also offensive to Jews and any other group that has been the target of actual genocide.
Bringing this display to a college campus was also just a plain stupid idea. College is, after all, a place where a lot of people with brains are. There are a lot of people who are smart enough to know that abortion and genocide are not the same thing… do you really think that the display helped your cause one single bit when it comes to those people?
May 14th, 2006 at 7:57 pm
Extremism on any issue is fanatical. Philomena and Sarah seem unable to understand my opinion that this isn’t the correct way to demonstrate pro-life views. I disagree with the way GAP presents it’s case, but I don’t disagree with them entirely because I do think abortion is murder. GAP, to me, is very juvenile and not very logical.
Sarah,
You call your self pro-life, but would you support pictures of dead American soldiers if it helped to end the Iraq war so there wouldn’t be anymore dead soldiers?
What about the hundreds of thousands of African adults and children dieing in Sudan, being tortured and murdered; do you think GAP is wrong using their resources to publicize abortion instead of that genocide?
To both of you,
I wish you knew anthony warren in real life because you’d know how much of a coward he is and how he wanted to suppress anyone knowing that the college republicans supported this event - he even posted that on the blog. I would recommend you look up to people who are not lying, cowardly snakes. I have never met someone who talks so big, but is a such a coward. He is the epitome of the scoundrel, dishonorable politician.
May 14th, 2006 at 11:18 pm
Ditto the Anthony Warren = coward comment above. He is such a tool. Supports this event then trys to cover his butt and deny his support. Talk about weak.
May 15th, 2006 at 12:02 am
Dear Andy,
All that I can discern from the not-so-polite discorse on the blog site is that this has become a personal issue, and that is not the case. You’re right, I don’t know Anthony, but he isn’t the issue, the issue is the millions of innocent children that are dying at their mother’s consent! It seems like the real concerns that should be occupying our minds have been shifted to something extremely trival compared to the real issue, can’t you see that? Why can’t pride and power struggle be put aside? I have been to one meeting, and I remember you, you used the analogy of abortion for something else, and I was really impressed with you, but after I saw what you did you your friend and how you protested the demonstrations, I was sicked, honestly. You should really think about your motives, esp. as an advocate for life. What are you trying to accomplish?
I would also like to stress the fact that when people who oppose us in general see the fractionalism within the group, it completely destroys our credibility. I and my cousin (Sarah) worked hard to represent the party and the Pro-life side, and you and the others standing there opposing us turned so many people away that could have had there minds changed. Remember, “divide and conquer,” and that is just what will happen if this goes on within the group; and I hope that this is NOT what you want.
May 15th, 2006 at 12:20 am
“Genocide,” this word has risen in status this week to be the distinction between support or opposition to abortion…..One word. Wrods are used as propaganda in our media everyday, words such as “choice” and “right to die” have given pretty names to horrible things, but we know that those names are only superficial, and I should hope that everyone reading this blog should have enough brains to know what they really mean. Words are words, nothing else, so why is it that one word has divided a group that once had respect on this campus? The college Republicans, because of a few people who didn’t like the word “genocide” has lost its creditability on this campus. Anyone who truly opposes abortion, and honestly believes that a PERSON is being chemically and systematically slaughtered through abortion MUT aknowledge that abortion fits this description. The targetted group here is the unborn, and I honestly don’t know why this word has caused a change of beliefs and has caused the end of friendships. This word has been used in the honest pursuit of justice for ALL, and you have jeopordized all that it stood for, and by your opposition, have caused many people who could have been inspired by you, to turn the other way. We all have the power to change hearts and minds, but all that opposed G.A.P. lost their chance ont his campus. I talked to people out inthe hot sun for two days, and I can tell you now that this project has changed people for the better on this campus. I stood there with three other freshman, all alone, at one time against over 100 protestors, and I could have used your keen minds and compassionate hearts…..the babies who were aborted yesterday, and today and the next daym could have used your simple words of defense. Instead of unity against ABORTION, this campus, and the College Republicans, have been ripped apart by a word. I was once told that 80% of the word is followers, 10% thinks they’re leaders, and 10% really are leaders. When I went to my first C.R. meeting two weeks ago, I thought that everyone was a leader, but I was devastated to learn only one week later, that there were very few real leaders on this campus. Thank you Anthony
May 15th, 2006 at 12:21 am
Honestly, ladies and gentlemen, we’re forgeting the real issue here. According the broad def. of genocide as stated above, that word could apply to any human group, and we all know that the unborn are still human. Abortion is simply age discrimination, we all know that, so relating it to genocide is not far fetched. Using that word does NOT demean the victims of geneocide at all, it brings into perspective what is really happening all over the world; they are NOT lies and fabrications. I don’t want to preach to the choir on abortion, but you all need to understand that issue is hot and cold, and what I mean by that is that there is no middle road. Being on the Pro-life end of the issue will be called fanatical wherever, I’ve experienced that personally my whole life.
Those of you who said the group was too fanatical and the issue was approached in the wrong way, think of this: when Martin Luther King, Jr. wanted to push Civil Rights in the 60’s he put pictures of blacks beaten around the voting poles and took a lot of criticism for it, people told him it was too upsetting, and the issue should have been approached in a more acceptable-to-the-public manner. So are all of you simply afraid of criticism? I hear you talk loud in the meetings, but do actually do anything outside of them?
May 15th, 2006 at 12:27 am
Philomena,
Thank you for coming to our meeting, and I hope you and your friend both come again. Let me tell you that I hate power, and I take pride in not abusing the power I do have. This is personal, and I hope you can see what my “friend” did to all of us in the CR’s. If you come to the CR meetings, hopefully I can impress you more. My motives are sound of the last time I checked, and my main goal is to preserve my, and my immediate families life first.
“I would also like to stress the fact that when people who oppose us in general see the fractionalism within the group, it completely destroys our credibility.”
This is the most dangerous line of thinking in the history of thought behind violating the natural rights of humans for some excuse. I implore you find the quoted sentence false.
The only person who divided us was anthony. That is what the executive board thinks at least and many other members. I didn’t turn people away from you - your pictures did. I received some compliments from conservative students who disagreed with your approach also. About 15 CR’s worked hard earlier in the year to represent the pro-life argument to students, we just disagree with how you’re going that. What destroys the credibility of the club to its members is the chair-wimp conspiring behind the CR’s backs.
You think that if there is disagreement in our club that it will tear us apart? I wouldn’t return to another meeting if there was no dissent. That’s what it means to be conservative - standing up for what’s right. anthony made me protest your vile display because he used the CR’s name to help you - which was wrong. Our club will prosper when that loser leaves.
But thanks for questioning my loyalty to the CR’s considering I’ve been attending for the past two years, opened my house and wallet for multiple parties and BBQ’s, volunteered my time and ammo to teach new members to shoot, and was proud to say I was a college republican.
Honestly, this is the sort of shit that makes me think about quiting. Fucking ignorance and blind stupidity wrought by neocon ideology.
May 15th, 2006 at 12:44 am
Wow, I just read both of your blathering. Look at you both - anyone who doesn’t find your pathetic display the work of a genius is an idiot who believes in propaganda. There is a lot worse shit happening in this world, and your refusal to acknowledge that is proof of your blind ignorance. Both of your arguments are immature and shallow.
I’m sorry, you can never “use my keen mind” for anything Sarah. And you’re talking to a real leader, miss.
You know what?? There is a middle road on abortion, and you know who’s on it?
GEORGE WALKER BUSH.
You’re cult leader darius forgot to mention that Bush won’t touch the issue with a cattle prod.
The people whom you worship have been in power for the past 6 years in congress and the white house, yet they have completely refused to take ANY action on the subject. If I were you, I’d focus some heat their way.
A civil war was fought to save Blacks from torture, murder, and slavery. If you equate abortion as equal or worse than slavery, where are your rifles girls?
Both of your hypocrisies smells to the sky. If you learn anything from this experience, learn to not let your feelings blind your logic.
May 15th, 2006 at 1:18 am
First, I want to approach the issue of “religious fanaticism” as the display was called. Religious fanatics are those that will run airplanes into buildings and kill thousands of innocent people, not those who peacefully express their opinion without any fabrication of the truth (like holding signs) to save millions of young innocents.
May 15th, 2006 at 3:31 am
Don’t worry, Philomena: you’re not.
See, if I had to pick one thing, I’d say people are probably having some trouble with your first clause there.
May 15th, 2006 at 9:21 am
The only “national, racial, political, or ethnic group” that abortion has a remote chance of destroying are pro-choicers. Since it’s voluntary and generally unplanned, it doesn’t really fit the genocide definition.
If abortion was going to eliminate all of the blue-eyed people on the planet, it would be genocide.
If abortion was going to eliminate all of the black people on the planet, it would be genocide.
If abortion was going to eliminate all of the Americans from the planet, it would be genocide.
If abortion was going to eliminate all of the Socialists from the planet, it would be genocide.
Abortion isn’t systematic and planned. Clearly it isn’t going to accomplish any of the above. It’s a terrible thing, but it is not genocide.
To use a metaphor: Imagine you have a forest not unlike those found outside of Eugene. Here is the difference between abortion and genocide.
Abortion is when a big tree chokes out one of its seedlings. Could be any kind of tree that did it, of any size and any species.
Genocide is when somebody or something goes into the forest with the intention of cutting down every single Douglas Fir they can find, for whatever reason.
By the way, I’ve got an uncle who spent time as a prisoner in a concentration camp in World War II. He’s not a Jew, but he witnessed actual genocide up close while he was being held. Those of you who think abortion and genocide are pretty close to the same thing are completely clueless.
Abortion is a terrible, terrible thing. I think just about anyone would prefer that abortions were a rare thing (even if legal).
The practice of genocide is far worse. We’re talking about the systematic destruction of an entire race, culture, or ethicity. You can’t restore it, it’s gone for good. Once you do that, you end an entire branch of the development of humanity.
May 15th, 2006 at 11:09 am
Well I didn’t call you religious fanatics, just regular fanatics. What makes you fanatical is your inability/refusal to acknowledge some of your postions are hypocritical because you don’t care - you just say the current buzz word of genocide.
I wouldn’t be suprized if you became fanatical on the other side either. It has nothing to do with logic or reason with you two - only what you feel.
Come to the meeting tomorrow at 7pm, and you can have your say.
May 15th, 2006 at 11:47 am
It is so completely awesome to watch you people disintegrate.
May 15th, 2006 at 1:08 pm
Michael, you’re right, genocide would fit all those catagories, but think on the fresh issue at hand. Wouldn’t killing all people of between the ages of 68-70 be considered genocide? Yes, now relate that to the unborn, killing the little ones from ages of 1 day to 6 months is the same thing. Are all babies who are concieved killed? No, but are all babies concieved deemed “unwanted?” No. The comparisons to genocide were completely vaild. The murder that is taking place is simply in a different setting. Think of how abortion is the killing of millions within the walls of a “clinic.” Because children are labeled as “unwanted” doesn’t that make them a cultural group? Giving people the legal option of doing that is supporting the systematic killing of those ages (aka age discrimination). Calling a child “unwanted” automatically clumps them in a group together. As a woman, I can say that the child within me is “unwanted” and kill the baby. That’s genocide.
May 15th, 2006 at 1:12 pm
By the way, if GAP had put the word murder up there, people would have argued false representation because “how can it be murder if the baby isn’t human?” Fighting over a word, no matter how powerful, is stepping aside from the issue= abortion. People’s conscience’s were pricked, if it really was as simple as the meaning of the word, why would there be such constroversy and protests, honestly?
May 15th, 2006 at 1:45 pm
Since your only argument is “abortion is bad and I don’t care how rediculiously I support that,” then just say it. You don’t want to respond to any of my comments, and everyone here realizes how stupid you both look.
The only thing you’re doing is trying to convince yourselves of the validity of your juvinile opinions. I haven’t seen such mental masturbation since talking with the pro-abortion protesters.
May 15th, 2006 at 2:45 pm
I think this conversation should be aborted. Boil me a coat hanger, stat.
May 15th, 2006 at 8:32 pm
For the record: I’m not pro-abortion so much as I am anti-fetus.
May 16th, 2006 at 12:41 am
Andy, you’re kind of not worth arguing with if all you’re going to do is insult me. I’ve been trying to have a mature conversation and all you do is name call, make generalizations, and not read what I have to say. So far you haven’t contradicted any of my points validly, but have said I’m emotional and my “feelings” are the only driving force on the issue. If you’re not going to listen I won’t waste my time with you, there are other Pro-choicers I need to talk too.
May 16th, 2006 at 12:57 am
Andy, I must say that you have really gone over the edge in the last few replies. I, and other people want to have a Discussion with you, but a discussion must have two sides. So far you haven’t addressed any of my points and have used vulgar and childish names to silence my “juvenile opinions.” This whole debate has drifted so far away from its original purpose. Abortion is what this is about, and political and personal agendas should not interfere. Saving babies is what this is about, and we must all stand united in the battle against abortion. If you really want to discuss this than I am prepared. You said that I haven’t responded to you but so far all I have heard is that I am “childish,” a “religious fanatic” , “stupid”, and many other names. Any yes, abortion is bad, and I don’t care how foolish I look when I support that. Being pro-life is never going to be popular on this campus, and in most of the world, but I have accepted that. You have said that I am simply driven by my emotions, and that they could lead me to the other side. I aknowledge that emotions are a pivotal part of me, but I believe that by my presence at the G.A.P. signs for two days debating, and my blog entries have shown that I have used scientific discoveries, life experiences, and logic to formulate the beliefs that these “emotions” have caused. I would like to know what guides you, since you have scolded me for letting my emotions and my concience guide me. I honestly don’t want to bicker like this, and it saddens me because I have always lived in very liberal areas where I would have to defend my position on abortion every day. It saddens me because you call yourself pro-life and I am still having to debate you, and in one of the most hostile ways I have ever observed. Not even the most zealouspro-abortion people have treated me the way that you have, they have respected me and I have respected them.
May 16th, 2006 at 8:52 am
Actually, Sarah, because I’m one of those who was embroiled in the controversy with the CRs…let me tell you what this is really about.
Anthony Warren (the guy whom you and Sarah worship) and his ego.
May 16th, 2006 at 9:26 am
Saving babies is what this is about, and we must all stand united in the battle against abortion.
Maybe we should install some sort of fertilization detecting device on all the women on the planet. Being that something like 3/4 fertilized eggs never implant in the uterine wall, and that a further a third of those that do implant miscarry. I mean, wouldn’t that make your sky friend the biggest genocidal sociopath in history? Worse than Stalin! Worse than Mao! Pol Pot ain’t got nothing on God!
Look, I realize there’s no point in arguing this with you people, but the first sign that an embryo is even vaguely human (human brain activity) comes somewhere in the middle of the second trimester, usually about the 4th month of pregnancy. A fetus can’t really breathe on its own before about 6 months at the earliest, more like seven most of the time. Physiologically those seem like the easiest places to draw bright lines, if that’s what one is inclined to do. This is why I’m fine with completely unrestricted abortion in the first
semestertrimester, and basically okay with it in the secondsemestertrimester. A lot of things “have the potential” to become human, give the great apes another few million years, so I don’t think that’s a very persuasive line of argumentation. If you’re dead when your brain stops, makes sense to call you alive when your brain starts. If you can’t breathe on your own, it seems that your family (or in the case of a fetus, your host) has the only decision making power when it comes to pulling the plug. Unless you want the government involved in end-of-life decision making, you’d best keep it out of start-of-life decision making because I’m having trouble seeing a clear moral distinction between a second trimester abortion and pulling the plug on Old Granny Senile. Given the behavior of Congress last year, I’d say they don’t see the distinction either and love their own power too much.Further, there are very real practical conerns that the anti-choice (as opposed to the pro-death) crowd absolutely refuse to face. They behave, and this should be no surprise as they’re the biggest drug warriors, as if a prohibition will curb a behavior. Truth of the matter is that there have been abortions for as long as there have been pregnancies, and while there could, perhaps, be fewer of them under a restriction regime I doubt very much that the hypothetical reduction in abortion will be enough to mitigate the very real harms caused by back-alley medical procedures.
I also wonder about your respective positions on birth control* more generally, because if you’re of the “every sperm is sacred” school of thought, I basically haven’t any respect for you. None**. Moreover, I can’t really respect engaging in the sort of insane hyperbole propagated by the GAP. Especially, as was mentioned upthread, because the pictures are not, in fact, of what they purport to be. What you’re saying, then, is that lying can be justified because the end you’re aiming to achieve is just. Frankly, no. That’s ridiculous. If you can’t persuade without dishonesty or hyperbole, you might as well just go home.
*I can see how, from a worldview, misguided as it might be, where one thinks abortion is the moral equivalent of murder one could be against hormonal birth control. Well, if one believed the pro-life hype about “potential to cause miscarriage”, anyway. But the whole condoms thing, or IUDs, or diaphrams…those can’t possibly cause miscarriage because they prevent fertilization in the first place.
**Which is to be construed as my respecting your right to hold whatever foolish opinion you wish, but not respecting the opinion held and therefore having little time and less patience for you.
May 16th, 2006 at 12:01 pm
Sarah and Philomena,
I agree with you that abortion is bad. If I could save every baby and mother from death I would, but I’m not God. So what do I do? I talk to people about other options, I tell them that it’s not a joyful experiance, and that there is a lot of support for mothers here in the US. I don’t think it’s the most important issue facing me right now though, so I don’t focus all my time trying to convince people of it. I think government enslavement of citizens is a greater threat, so that’s what I’m most knowledgable and passionate about.
What I disagree with you on is that YOU refuse to recognize my opinion that:
1) abortion is not genocide
2) the gap display isn’t the right way to get the pro-life message to people
Not answering questions that I ask, ignoring Michael’s post, using “scientific discorveries” to equate genocide with abortion, and acosting the university students with false, graphic pictures for the basis for me calling you both juvinile and immature.
“So far you haven’t contradicted any of my points validly” - are you kidding me????
It’s sickening that you think your tiny opinion of the right way to get the pro-life message to students is the be all end all and there can be no discussion. You’re not listening to my argument - I am pro-life but you’re not helping the cause. That’s where I disagree with you, but both of you won’t talk about that.
If this is the most “hostile discussion” you’ve ever had, then you’d better thank your lucky stars.
But you want to know what guides me? The drive to have a better life, to bring my children into a world that is free from tyranny and coercive violence. But I’m not going to attack you for not believing that is the most important issue.
You girls are trying to push your agenda, when this blog has nothing to do with abortion. The issues here is anthony is a shit-bird, and the second issue is the way you present your argument. No one is argueing with you that abortion is bad - we’re all in agreement. So who ae you trying to convince? If all you want to do is convince people that abortion is bad, then you’ve done it! If you want to convince people that the GAP is the best way to convince people that abortion is bad, talk about that, because you haven’t.
Change your immature ways or else you will continue to be immature.
May 16th, 2006 at 12:49 pm
Change your immature ways or else you will continue to be immature.
Stop burning your toast or else the toast will be burned!
May 16th, 2006 at 2:01 pm
What is a shit-bird? I don’t believe it’s been covered in any orinthology texts I’ve ever read. Does it poop a lot?
The thread has seved for some interesting discussion. Can we leave it at that and not try to control it like a board meeting?
Certainly it would seem that Anthony has a bit of Hillary Clinton in Him..if you’ll pardon the imagery….or George Dubya to be fair. Your point has been made Andy…and rather well i might add.
Shall we tar and feather Anthony? Perhaps come up with a green letter “L” that he’ll have to wear forever? What shall it be?
If you’re truly concerned with the world you’ll leave for your children…..make intelligent arguments and move on.
May 16th, 2006 at 2:53 pm
What is a shit-bird? I don’t believe it’s been covered in any orinthology texts I’ve ever read. Does it poop a lot?
I, for one, would assume it poops a few standard deviations more than the mean. It may even be entirely made of poop.
May 16th, 2006 at 2:55 pm
Shit birds are avians whose habitations is fecal matter, similar to how water fowl live in rivers, lakes and oceans.
May 16th, 2006 at 3:38 pm
Meridith: It’s already been done. Calls to Tom Tancredo’s office, National Right To Life, Oregon Right To Life.
Anthony Warren does not have a future in politics. Period.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:33 pm
I apologize to everyone observing this interaction, but I’m going to try and end it now, because I can understand why you’re frustrated. This argument has become cyclical because my points aren’t being acknowledged. I’ve been arguing why GAP was an effective and worthwile endeaver this whole time if you would look at my responses (recap: abortion is genocide, got people talking, when people think on anything it’s good, look at how genocide is abortion, etc.). If you really did anything pro-life before, it didn’t have an effect on anyone because no one knew about it; and what’s the point in even trying to make a statement if it had no effect on anyone? I’ve been on the issue the whole time, simply look at all my entries, and Sarah’s as well.
And if the issue is not about abortion and about Anthony, than I’ve been on that side of the argument the whole time because I support him, I’ve already stated that.
Obviously those who I’ve been debating with haven’t been paying attention to the straightforward train of arguement if you think I haven’t been responding back. If you’re too egocentric to think that just because I don’t acknowledge you personally in each and every point I make than you’re not in this for the intellectual exchange, but for self-flattery. I have been arguing all points (read all the above). Finally, Andy (are you glad I said your name), you said that this issue shouldn’t predominate my time, there are other more improtant things to worry about, right? Then why are so so angered that I’m not giving you the “every attention” you think you deserve when I try and talk about all points presented and not just yours. I have been attacking your arguments, by the way (read and absorb the arguments).
Calling me emotional is also such a backlash upon yourself because you are making it a specific attack-oriented conversation, and not progressive at all.
It’s apparent you’ve been disreagarding what I’ve been saying and screaming your own opinion without consideration; and that’s immature.
Speaking of immature, by trying to destroy my credibility by making generalizations about me isn’t an intelligent way of debateing; besides, none of my opposers know anything about me, much less my stance on anything besides abortion and GAP now. Anyways, I’m not the issue here, but that’s what it seems like Andy is trying to make it out to be
“Wow, I just read both of your blathering. Look at you both - anyone who doesn’t find your pathetic display the work of a genius is an idiot who believes in propaganda. There is a lot worse shit happening in this world, and your refusal to acknowledge that is proof of your blind ignorance. Both of your arguments are immature and shallow” -Andy
HOw do you know I’m not acknowledging other things is the world? Funny because you asked my to interview with you tomorrow about my activism elsewhere…
Like I said before, this is a cyclical argument and it’s frustrating if you don’t see connect my points to yours. Why are you wasting so much of you time writing blogs directed at me if you think i’m too juvenille or immature to have any valid opinion? I don’t get you.
P.S. Timothy, I think you and I should start at square one on the abortion issue because you’re obviously pro-choice.
May 16th, 2006 at 7:11 pm
Obviously pro-choice, eh? What gave it away, the crack about being anti-fetus or the bit where I stated I’m for completely unrestricted abortion in the first trimester? Observant, you. Just can’t sneak anything by!
For the record, my prefered nomenclature is anti-fetus or pro-death. And, yes, I’ll continue to be glib about it because I might as well be with you people. You believe, with all sincerity, that the removal of a 9-week-old parasite is morally equivalent to stabbing my neighbor for his stereo. Maybe worse, because at least my neighbor isn’t an “innocent child” or one of the “unborn” or some other such nonsense. And, fine, you’re well within your rights to believe that if you want to, and it does flow logically from that belief that you’d try to make abortion illegal (after all, it harms the welfare of another in your mind and is therefore bad)…but there’s little evidence to support you. Okay, so if the blastocyst implants it might not miscarry, hell, it’s got about a 2/3 chance of staying in there…but the little tadpole won’t demonstrate human brain activity until about four months after that, won’t be able to support itself outside of a natal environment for six or seven. Those are the medical facts, if you’re dead when your brain stops, makes sense that you’d be alive when it starts. If you can pull the plug on Granny why not on junior?
But, you know, I’m sure you’re literate and at this point I’m just repeating myself. The sad thing is that you really just don’t seem able to get it. Rather than make an actual, you know, argument as to why, medical facts aside, we should all jump on anti-choice bandwagon you put up pictures of miscarriages and stillbirths to evoke an emotional rather than a rational response. What’s worse, because I’ve seen that trick before and it’s annoying but otherwise unremarkable, is that you have the audacity to claim it’s just as bad as the mechanized, systematic destruction of every dissenter and Jew inside of Germany over a period of four years.
And now you hide behind the “it got people talking” excuse. That one has been used by everyone from holocaust deniers to PETA activists. I seem to recall The Insurgent saying something remarkably similar and a great number of God botherers getting pretty upset about it. I seem to recall, correct me if I’m wrong here, that a number of them actually called for the censure of The Insurgent over the offensive cartoons. Goose, gander, all that. “Getting poeple talking” is no excuse for blatant misrepresentation and hyperbole.
Lest I be misunderstood, I gladly accept that you have a right to place whatever signs you want anywhere on public land. Stand on a street corner yelling about how abortionists are going to hell if you want, Bible Jim* seems to get a gas out of that kind of thing. It’s just that your tactics are stupid, unlikely to be successful (protest all you want, your sample is going to be rife with representativeness and availability bias), and your implications are completely, utterly absurd.
And, frankly, I blame Descartes for this whole mess.
*”Dykes on Bikes” remains my favorite from the “People Are Going To Hell” list, it seems to imply that pedestrial lesbians are A-OK, but that they need not to ride bikes in order to achieve eternal salvation.
May 16th, 2006 at 11:47 pm
Well, Philomena, you’re a fucking fool for supporting the ass-crack named Anthony Warren.
And you may end up like him, with no future, if you’re not careful. So stop making him your personal Jesus, and start getting with the program.
May 17th, 2006 at 5:16 am
MASTER>>>>MASTER>>>>>>MASTER !!!!!
DANGEROUS WORDS MY DEAR!
GET WITH “THE PROGRAM” OR YOU’LL HAVE NO FUTURE ?????
MY OH MY….HOW WE CAN BEGIN TO SOUND LIKE THOSE WE RAIL AGAINST !
REPENT !! lol
May 17th, 2006 at 7:17 am
Margo, the cranial-rectal extraction room is down the hall. I suggest you go get some treatment.
May 17th, 2006 at 7:24 am
Yes, but who runs Bartertown?
May 17th, 2006 at 1:32 pm
Some of you (and you probably don’t know who you are), need to
(1) use a spellchecker
(2) learn English grammer.
Nothing makes you look dumber (besides your arguments that
abortion is genocide) than your inability to form grammatically
correct English sentences.
May 19th, 2006 at 6:50 am
Master-baiter…..
How easily we can become the fascists we claim to despise !
May 19th, 2006 at 7:21 am
Margo, is there a salient point to your ramblings, or are you always going to be an incoherent bitch?
May 19th, 2006 at 11:17 am
Master…
First let me quote you:
” Well, Philomena, you’re a fucking fool for supporting the ass-crack named Anthony Warren.
And you may end up like him, with no future, if you’re not careful. So stop making him your personal Jesus, and start getting with the program. ”
You are a small-minded neo-fascist fool to make such a statement / threat.
My point is quite conspicuous I think. Unlike you and a few others around here I don’t need to go on for several paragraphs each time I have a thought.
May 19th, 2006 at 12:15 pm
Margo: Apparently, you’re an Anthony worshipper. Oh wait, if you’re not…it doesn’t apply to you. *shock* How hard can it be to understand that Anthony Warren is one of the biggest fuckfaces on campus who’s ego is larger than the province of Alberta?
As for your main point: I am not a fascist fool. I am making a perfectly sensible observation that Ms. Philomena is going down the same road Anthony is going down, and that the consequences for the actions may be mirrored to such. Fascism has no relevance in the statement as such. If you wanted an explaination, ASK ME. Don’t make accusations. They make you look like a victim of buggery.
The “personal Jesus” comment is quite plain to state, in that Philomena seems to be worshipping Anthony like he was Jesus or something. To which he isn’t. To get with the program simply means to stop blindly worshipping Anthony like he’s the God of the U of O.
Margo, I hope you take a lesson from this. Don’t mess with the Master.
May 19th, 2006 at 12:31 pm
I certainly am not an Anthony worshipper. His lie is reprehensible.
You have many good points to make but your anger and/or lack of classic rhetorical skill leaves you unable to communicate without the use of abusive and intimidating language that I believe is designed to silence those who think differently than you do.
What are your aspirations I wonder?
There’s a permanent record here of your apparent misogyny, vulgarity and inability to communicate effectively.
Consider yourself messed with…… MASTER_BAITER !
May 19th, 2006 at 12:36 pm
Kids, don’t make me turn this blog around.
May 19th, 2006 at 2:07 pm
Man some of you guys just wont stop with the attacks.hahaha. Yall must be really bored.
May 19th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
Well then, Margo, what are you bothering me about? If you think that Anthony’s lie is reprehensible, then we’re in agreement.
And you’re willing to dismiss my points all because of this perceived lack of rhetorical skill? Facts are facts, dear. Anthony lied to his people, Philomena is defending him. I’m warning her that her actions can put her in the same position that he is in. And you’re willing to dismiss all that because you’re not happy with my style?
I bet you’re not even a woman.
May 19th, 2006 at 3:59 pm
Please kill this fucking thread. No more posting, please. Just stop typing…stop it!!
May 20th, 2006 at 12:58 pm
I’m sorry that I got carried away. I’m recovering from knee surgery and am bit cranky. I criticized Master for personal attacks and then did a bit of the same.
I stand by the substance of what I’ve stated but I regret and apologize for the tone.
I will respect the administrator and move on.
May 20th, 2006 at 4:38 pm
This thread is like an abortion, only more offensive and life-threatening.
May 20th, 2006 at 10:18 pm
I’m turning the comments on this sucker off. I’ve had enough of this shit.